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Stealth Bombers II - A new focused role

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 34 post(s)
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:21:00 - [1] Okay, now it's a completely new ball game. I no longer think these changes are the harbingers of doom. I will keep on running scenarios in my mind and I will take those to SiSi once we have this available for testing. This sure takes away the old bomber, no arguing there, whinage of "lost" training time will be heard and so on. But will this new deliver? There still won't be solo BS'es around New Eden, so this will come down to how does this fit into realistic target groups. I'm looking forward to some real trials with this. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:43:00 - [2] Originally by: Ranger 1 I really, really wanted the 1000m/s speed while cloaked. ... CCP, I know you are trying to find a direction that will make people happy and create a specific role for SB at the same time, but I hate this. Don't kid yourself. We're FAR from happy. The unexpected happened (to me anyway) and cov ops cloak stepped into the arena, changing everything, along with 30second "you must die because you decloaked" delay . I'm willing to digest this and give it number of DAYS to try out with scenarios I have seen in TQ myself. I'm willing to try to think outside of the box, what this approach could do (as I still don't buy anti-BS concept, NOT with these volley damages, not without dramatic damage bonuses). But I will try to be as open as I can... I have no real idea if this bird will be a Dodo or will it soar, tbh. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 09:10:00 - [3] Edited by: Gner Dechast on 31/03/2009 09:16:01 Originally by: Artemis Dragmire I still think torp based SBs sound awesome. I haven't run the numbers but a small gang of these could be quite a frightful thing indeed. Combined with a couple interceptors for target painting and webbing work and you could see 1-2 volley kills on anything BC or smaller. Do want my klingon bird of prey style suicide glass cannons of death. Yes, I imagine you want one... This is the problem with this whole Torpedo change, not enough REAL piloting hours with the actual ship, too much fertile imagination that has not enough connection points to the game-reality. "ZOOM ZOOM BOOOOM! Like that, yea awesome!" PvP is 99% of all the stuff that happens BEFORE you press F1, F2, F3.... after that you are left usually with very few decisions anymore - mostly involving if to bail out. Try to approach us with this in mind, EXPLAIN yourselves WHY do you think your new idea is good. EXPLAIN how and in what kind of an environment does it work. That would take this a long way and would not make this sound like "we firmly believe that stabbing you guys in the back is a really good idea" which atleast good portion of people here more or less take it. EDIT: While this quotes Artemis Dragmire, this is directed to CCP - sorry about the ambiquity. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:12:00 - [4] Edited by: Gner Dechast on 31/03/2009 10:17:38 After considerable thought (but obviously no testing yet) I am inclined to believe; This Covert Ops Cloak thing is not right. Not with the penalty suggested. Drop it. Chronotis' grudge with SB's lies within the range, hence the stubborn drive to REDUNDANT short range torpedoes. (the role he suggests IS already there in the bombs) Better compromise would be to penalise cruise missile range and... Creation of a new class is in order, IF Chronotis genuinely believes in point-blank range paper thing torpedo boat (if this was only to maim SB's and range nerf is acceptable, no new class is needed) There is no reason that I can come up with NOT to allow bombs in lowsec. Bomb damage is feeble in comparison to realistic ship ehp's and should be checked. To my knowledge, up to this date, CCP has not made a complete redesign on a ship that directly obsoletes customer skillpoints and this sets a baseline how will CCP deal with this kind of thing, if original idea is indeed pushed through I have not been able to think any REALISTIC scenarios where the suggested torpedo bomber would be acceptable, let alone better choice than other alternatives. This is alarming, has anyone done this line of concept proofing? One smart person in the old thread put up a question, why SB instead of Raven with a cloak for surprise DPS - and I cannot STILL find other answer than somewhat better survivability moving through hostile 0.0... And I believe THIS question has to be answered properly to justify torpedo SB at all. I'm very concerned we're heading arse first up the tree now -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 17:18:00 - [5] Originally by: CCP Chronotis Sisi is being updated very regularly now and the final bonuses will be updated very regularly from now on so bear this in mind that this post or sisi may be out of sync. Currently, the bombers should be getting a 20% torpedo damage and velocity bonus per level with 5% bomb damage and 10% bonus to torpedo explosion velocity. The main difference is the torpedo damage and velocity increase. Here's little testing results from my part; - Fitting isn't T2 launcher friendly, you have to compromise alot for them. But neither was the old for cruises... So this is propably just OK. - Drones will be I-Win tactic against bombers. They instalock you unless they're busy elsewhere and no more recloaking for you. Your point-blank range means that you have exactly as long to escape now until the target (or his fast locking support lock and scramble you). - The ship is WAY too clumsy for close range manouvering. This will be a serious problem. I was manouvering hard and fast tryign to avoid a hurricane decloaking me. Nano phoon with smartbombs (intruder in space) was also serious thread o.O - Your close range (my range of 20km) is quarantee that you are also in point range. Losing cloaking ability equals death, basicly. - Volley damage feels insufficient for small gang usage. Hope this isn't being hammered into blob warfare specific ship. + The speed bonus feels, it's not merely decorative. It also helps alot to fit an afterburner and gain short time extra speed boost to avoid approaching ships with decloking in mind. We're getting more people and setting up more potentially realistic scenarios. So more opinions and feelings later... -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:10:00 - [6] Some more subjective experiences from SiSi - Heavy Drones hit you unless you have an afterburner. - Medium Drones hit you regardless, good or bad depending on skills on each side. - Light drones violate you in ways that make machokists sing. One truly ridiculous feature in Eve really hurts here. For reasons unknow, your ship will choose another orbit when you shutdown or your after burner runs out of cap. Unless you're very lucky, that's the moment your ship turns into a nice salvage opportunity. Alternatives surfaced during these test; = More damage bonus, apply RoF penalty = Allow recloaking while being targeted to negate drone I-Win The old/existing bomber was not a niche, Chronotis - it had wide ranging applications. It wasn't anti-frigate either, Chronotis, not after the missile nerf. Sooo many bombers were lost in the field to lone frigates shrugging off the damage after the change. This new one is a niche ship, very specific indeed (BS'es and does work feasibly with most BC targets that we tried) but it's defenceless, clumsy, paper thin and it will be the most expencive inflicted damage point per ISK invested, unless some level of survivability can be bestowed upon this ship class. Every single time the killer is drones. In the new reality, pilots aware of bombers in the grid simply keep then orbiting, and recall them until a bomber aggroes. In less than 60 seconds, the bomber is gone and won't bother anymore. I mentioned that one important question to be answered is why use this kind of a bomber at all, instead of torp raven with a cloak. Currently, no reason at all. The target has to be tackled by something, so the rave can decloak and warp to right range anyway - this is even faster DPS delivery than a bomber creeping into the range. Further more, Raven won't alarm the people in the grid like arriving bomber will. This very concept is deeply flawed and no amount of bonus percentage tweaking resolved that. This needs something far more in my opinion to make it viable. Only radical volley damage increase might hide this flawed state... I still ask, please make this a new ship class of it's own. Just come clean with your grudge against current bomber (no, "doesn't make sense" is not it) tell us what is wrong with it, and let's nerf that with whine and cheese... -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Vall Kor Originally by: Gner Dechast blah blah Hmm so what we've been saying is true? YOU can not put a paper tank into close range combat and expect good things to happen. Well, I think we all owe the concept testing. It's not sitting well with gang sizes I am used to and I haven't been able to think out of the box applications either for now. Still, willing to do some testing with it and hoping to see lots of other experiences too... -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:31:00 - [8] Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 31/03/2009 18:28:40 Originally by: Gner Dechast I mentioned that one important question to be answered is why use this kind of a bomber at all, instead of torp raven with a cloak. Currently, no reason at all. The target has to be tackled by something, so the rave can decloak and warp to right range anyway - this is even faster DPS delivery than a bomber creeping into the range. Further more, Raven won't alarm the people in the grid like arriving bomber will. This very concept is deeply flawed and no amount of bonus percentage tweaking resolved that. This needs something far more in my opinion to make it viable. Only radical volley damage increase might hide this flawed state... I still ask, please make this a new ship class of it's own. Just come clean with your grudge against current bomber (no, "doesn't make sense" is not it) tell us what is wrong with it, and let's nerf that with whine and cheese... Err, the proposed stealth bomber has a covops cloak now so how the hell are people going to spot it landing on grid. Besides anyone with any ounce of pew pew experience will keep eyes on the directional scanner. The bomber does not have cov ops cloak, it was either revoked or hasn't made it's way to SiSi - I understand it's the former (it was a dropped idea) -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Malena Panic Really exciting proposal! I love the way that the SB is being redesigned to fill a niche role. I can already see some interesting synergies with existing ship classes. Please, share. We're in dire need of these synergies, and people here are willing to test them out in SiSi, even. Cheers -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 18:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 31/03/2009 18:38:20 Originally by: Gner Dechast Originally by: Cerui Tarshiel Edited by: Cerui Tarshiel on 31/03/2009 18:28:40 Originally by: Gner Dechast Stuff Err, the proposed stealth bomber has a covops cloak now so how the hell are people going to spot it landing on grid. Besides anyone with any ounce of pew pew experience will keep eyes on the directional scanner. The bomber does not have cov ops cloak, it was either revoked or hasn't made it's way to SiSi - I understand it's the former (it was a dropped idea) Maybe you should've read the opening post, which states -> Quote: 1. Bombers will be able to fit covert ops cloak However they will have a 30 second cloak reactivation delay. This means they can warp in cloaked and better surprise their targets in a true ambush. However once they are committed to the fight, they will not be able to recloak quickly as a drawback so choosing the right time to strike is essential. I've got a revelation for you mate, changes are often announced here on the forums before being put on sisi No need to be cheeky. I did read it, and despite of your post, my current understanding is unchanged. Come back when you're an authority on SiSi state. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval

Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.03.31 19:17:00 - [11] Quote from this thread: Quote: certain changes to other certain ships will be that quite a deadly combination for taking out the jammers is possible for the innovative strategists amongst you OMFG Is THIS the reason why bombers as we know them must die? Your simple idea (so readily digested and offered to "strategic masterminds") of anti-cynojammer tactic? And you flat out refuse to create a new ship class for this.. That's it for today - have a nice day everyone. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval
Gner Dechast Flashman Services	Posted - 2009.04.01 15:10:00 - [12] Originally by: X1994 The new bonuses are awesome, but i think the cloak reactivation delay should only be 20 seconds. While I disagree with you completely about this being awesome... I welcome differing opinion here, honestly. However, why is that positive feedback is only a few lines at most? I would love to hear why someone would think this is great and why would someone think this would even work. Perhaps you don't want to submit your opinions to the raging resistance that is likely to flame - that I can relate with, ofc. However, I would like to see some posts that atleast try to bring out well founded reasons for their liking of this change. -- No expansions before holidays and no release until QA gives it's approval

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